Posts by Island Man

17

Photosynthesis and the problem with the creation story

by purrpurr in

i just noticed in the bible that on day three, god created the plants and trees on the earth.... day four, god created the sun, moon and stars!

so that means that the vegetation that is by its very nature dependant upon light to grow and photosynthesise was created a day before the sun that it needs to live!???.

this gets even more strange when you factor in the jw exhuse that a day to god is like a thousand years.

Island Man

If I remember correctly, JWs resolve this issue by saying that what happened on day 4 isn't the literal creation of the sun moon and stars but only their being made discernible as distinct objects in the sky. Prior to that sunlight was already reaching the earth's surface from day one when God said let light come to be. Only, the sunlight was diffuse, shining through a haze and one could not make out the sun or any other heavenly body as distinct objects in the sky. They basically teach that what happened on day 4 is the clearing of the atmospheric clouds to allow heavenly objects to be distinctly discernible for the first time.

23

The folly of Watchtower's theodicy. Or, why would an all-powerful and all-wise God need to justify his sovereignty through suffering?

by Island Man in

watchtower says that evil and suffering exist at present to vindicate jehovah as being the only one qualified to govern; to bear witness to man's inability to govern himself independent of god and under satan's direction.

the claim is made that the questions raised by satan regarding god's motives as universal sovereign can only be answered by allowing humans to see the evil and suffering that results when man lives independent of god's protection and direction.. watchtower and jws seem to think that this is the best theodicy in the world.

but there are some serious flaws in it.. 1. such a theodicy suggests that all perfect and intelligent creation, up until the advent of adam and eve, did not know god and his ways well enough to be confident that his motives as universal sovereign are pure.

Island Man

Watchtower says that evil and suffering exist at present to vindicate Jehovah as being the only one qualified to govern; to bear witness to man's inability to govern himself independent of God and under Satan's direction.

The claim is made that the questions raised by Satan regarding God's motives as universal sovereign can only be answered by allowing humans to see the evil and suffering that results when man lives independent of God's protection and direction.

Watchtower and JWs seem to think that this is the best theodicy in the world. But there are some serious flaws in it.

1. Such a theodicy suggests that all perfect and intelligent creation, up until the advent of Adam and Eve, did not know God and his ways well enough to be confident that his motives as universal sovereign are pure. How long have the angels been in existence? Man was created 6040 years ago, according to JWs. The universe is over 13 billion years old according to scientists and this age is not disputed by Watchtower. Since Watchtower teaches that the angels were made before the universe, then it means that God had more than 13 billion years to reveal his heart and motives to his perfect intelligent creation yet failed to do so well enough as to avert any questioning of his motives and the rightfulness of his sovereignty when Satan rebelled. This in and of itself is an indictment of God's way of ruling. Furthermore, are the angels too dumb to figure out that the one who created them and universe must be far more knowledgeable than they are and thus the one most qualified to govern, without first having to see humans suffer when God is removed from driver's seat?

2. If we ignore the folly of 1. then there's the problem of mankind and satan not being given a fair opportunity to make their case. Up until Adam and Eve's disobedience, God was governing perfect beings. So the question of sovereignty is really a question of whether or not perfect intelligent beings can successfully govern themselves independent of God. However, upon their disobedience, Adam and Eve were cursed by God with imperfection that leads to death. Thus mankind is deprived of the perfect mind and long life required to transparently and adequately make his case. Furthermore, the book of Genesis records God further thwarting man's effort to make his case by confusing human language at Babel. God is actually on record as saying that he has to do this because nothing would be impossible for man to achieve if he allows them to continue their efforts unitedly. It doesn't get any more damning that this. The bible shows that God is not playing fair - that God is not giving mankind a fair opportunity to prove that they can govern themselves independent of him, contrary to Watchotwer's claim.

3. The claim is made by Watchtower, that if God secretly stepped in to avert disasters and suffering whenever they are about to occur, then that will give the false impression that satan and mankind are able to govern independent of God without problems arising. But why would God's stepping in have to be done secretly? What if he stepped in publicly during a disaster, to save lives and prevent suffering, and to expose to the public how mankind's way of ruling led to the disaster? That would have the effect of still showing that mankind cannot successfully govern himself independent of God, while at the same time proving that he is a loving and caring God who does not want people to die and suffer needlessly - that he does not see humans as expendable pawns in his quest to prove satan a liar; that he is willing to forego enjoying the greater propaganda victory that comes from mankind's failures causing death and suffering, out of love for humans.

38

Thinking about taking my fiance to a meeting.. going as a "worldly person"

by OneStepOut93 in

i may take my fiance to a meeting.

give them fake names and just see how my fiance reacts.

he's been curious about seeing what i hated so much about the whole thing (not that he'll really understand everything, i mean of course he never will to my extent but)... i'd like to see what an outsiders view on the whole thing would be as well.

Island Man

That image was poor quality, I'm sorry..

Really? Seems good to me.

128

Participate In The EX-JW Personality Test!

by C0ntr013r in

first of all; i must admit that i'm not a huge fan of putting people in boxes like this, it is not an exact science.

but i still think the data can be quite interesting and i intend to collect it and share it in a structured way with you guys.

so without future ado here are the details.. link to test: .

Island Man

My results:

2

Interesting lecture that gives some insight into why JWs hate/fear dissenters.

by Island Man in

the actual lecture starts around the 10 minute mark.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvjzqwy9dve.

Island Man

The actual lecture starts around the 10 minute mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvJZQwy9dvE

29

Need clarification from someone who speaks JW: What is an "apostate" ...or... an "apostate website?"

by Faithful Witness in

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/jul/27/jehovahs-witnesses-destroyed-notes-about-child-sex-abuse-inquiry-told.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/27/us-australia-religion-sexcrimes-iduskcn0q10ih20150727.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2015/07/28/australia-jehovah-witness-sex-abuse-hannigan-lklv.cnn.

Island Man

Officially, Watchtower defines an apostate as a baptized JW who rejects bible teachings as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses. So a JW does not have to voluntarily leave the organization to be an apostate. He can be disfellowshipped for apostasy if adamantly disagrees with Watchtower teachings.

Since JWs teach that a person must worship God as part of their organization to have God's favor, the word apostate also applies to any who disassociates from the organization - even without them being openly critical of its teachings or campaigning against it.

That's the official position. Unofficially, however, most JWs use the word apostate to refer only to JWs who become critics of the organization and its teachings and actively campaign to influence JWs into leaving the organization. They also use the word apostate as an adjective to refer to information that is critical of their teachings and organization.

The true dictionary definition of the word apostate means someone who has abandoned or rejected a religion or cause they once supported. When JWs start talking about apostates you can ask the JW what religion he was before he became a JW and why he left that religion. Then you tell the JW: "You're an apostate of [insert religion]! Why should I believe anything you have to say about them?"

24

Interesting Article: New human link found "Homo Naledi"

by Splash in

haven't read it all yet, but 15 skeletons have been found in south africa, near jo'burg... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11855405/homo-naledi-a-new-species-of-human-discovered-in-a-cave-in-south-africa.html.

Island Man

This was just an ape that resembles humans more closely and the evolution-biased Darwinists are wrongly claiming that it is an evolutionary ancestor of humans. Plus the carbon dating is messed up because of changes due to the flood. The scientists don't know what they're talking about. True christians reject worldly wisdom in favor of bible truth.

36

Could "this generation" inspire a new "1975 debacle"?

by Island Man in

i think that it's possible that they're getting ready to issue a new end time date insinuation like they did with 1975. now i know what some of you are probably thinking: why would they be so stupid as to repeat such a mistake, knowing what happened in 1975?

well here're two reasons why i think they could do it:.

first, it's important to remember that they are deluded.

Island Man

Bear in mind that 20xx would not be the date prediction for the end but merely the maximum projected deadline for the end. They could play up this technicality to emphasize that they're not making a prediction of when the end is coming but merely pointing out the finite lifespan of "this generation" and that the end can come well before that date.

That way they can create the effect of a date prediction while at the same time not making an actual date prediction and emphasizing the point that they aren't making a date prediction. That way, the dubs will be more inclined to accept the non-prediction without Matthew 24:36 causing them any cognitive dissonance.

36

Could "this generation" inspire a new "1975 debacle"?

by Island Man in

i think that it's possible that they're getting ready to issue a new end time date insinuation like they did with 1975. now i know what some of you are probably thinking: why would they be so stupid as to repeat such a mistake, knowing what happened in 1975?

well here're two reasons why i think they could do it:.

first, it's important to remember that they are deluded.

Island Man

I think that it's possible that they're getting ready to issue a new end time date insinuation like they did with 1975. Now I know what some of you are probably thinking: why would they be so stupid as to repeat such a mistake, knowing what happened in 1975? Well here're two reasons why I think they could do it:

First, it's important to remember that they are deluded. They really believe that the end is coming within "this generation" so it's easy for them to tell themselves that even if they were wrong in the past they now have a better handle on the timeline. Setting a specific target date would also inspire fear and urgency in JWs, scaring sleeping fence-sitters and unbaptized publishers as well as ignorant members of the public into becoming full-fledged loyal, baptized members of the religion. It will boost their membership.

Second, they can rationalize their claim and give it credence by saying that they're not really setting a date for the end. This is what I believe they can do: They can conduct a global survey of all congregations to determine the youngest surviving member of group 2 of the overlapping generation. They can then use this person's current age and an estimated maximum life-expectancy + a few years for safety, to determine a maximum end date for "this generation". Then they can publish in a Watchtower that "this generation" is projected to continue up to 20xx for the absolute latest, followed by something like:

"Can we conclude then that this wicked system will end in 20xx? No, we cannot make such specific predictions because Jesus clearly said no one knows the day or the hour. But he did tell us the generation. That generation's end point - this generation's end point - is clearly discernible and fast approaching! Jesus said "this generation will not pass away until all these things occur"! Evidently, the end of this wicked system must come some time before 20xx. We do not know the day or the hour but we do know the deadline!"

And so this line of reasoning can implant the date 20xx in the minds of JWs creating as much hype over that date as existed regarding the 1975 date. And they can rationalize away any criticisms of their claims based on Jesus' statement about no one knowing the day, by saying that they're not claiming to know the day, that the end can come anytime before 20xx - only it must come before then.

I can totally see this happening.

26

the purpose of generation explanation

by poopie in

jw
friends

ok here is my 2 cents they are getting complaints concerning the drum beat that goes we are in the last hour of last min bla bla bla and people are tired and want system to end so if the system is ended sooon then why are there new partakers assuming that most have the actually calling.

so now we have a problem how do we fix it?

simple just say those new annointed are not part of this generation so now if we appoint younger guys to gb not to worry there not a part of this generation.

Island Man

I think that it's possible that they're getting ready to issue a new end time date insinuation like they did with 1975.

Now I know what some of you are probably thinking: why would they be so stupid as to repeat such a mistake, knowing what happened in 1975? Well here're two reasons why I think they will do it:

First, it's important to remember that they are deluded. They really believe that the end is coming within "this generation" so it's easy for them to tell themselves that even if they were wrong in the past they now have a better handle on the timeline.

Second, they will rationalize their claim by saying that they're not really setting a date for the end. This is what I believe they will do: They will conduct a global survey to determine the youngest surviving member of group 2 of the overlapping generation. They will use this person's current age and an estimated maximum life-expectancy + a few years for safety, to determine a maximum end date for "this generation". Then they will publish in a Watchtower that "this generation" is projected to continue up to 20xx for the absolute latest. Then they will say something like:

"Can we conclude then that this wicked system will end in 20xx? No, we cannot make such specific predictions because Jesus clearly said no one knows the day or the hour. But he did tell us the generation. That generation's end point - this generation's end point - is clearly discernible and fast approaching! Jesus said "this generation will not pass away until all these things occur"! Evidently, the end of this wicked system must come some time before 20xx. We do not know the day or the hour but we do know the deadline!"

And so this line of reasoning will implant the date 20xx in the minds of JWs creating as much hype over that date as existed regarding the 1975 date. And they will rationalize away Jesus' statement about no one knowing the day by saying that they're not claiming to know the day, that the end can come anytime before 20xx - only it must come before then.

I can totally see this happening.